Tuesday, November 10, 2015

Dungeon Saga Adventurer's Companion Errata/FAQ

So I am going to make a errata and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Dungeon Saga Dwarf Kings Quest and the the Dungeon Saga Adventurer's Companion (AC) since we have not gotten anything out of Mantic outside a correction to missing page numbers and we are all very impatient. 

If you need help sorting what is in your kickstarter cartons or expansions I have lists of those for carton A and the individual expansions or carton B.   If you do not know if you are supposed to have an A or B the carton B was for Dungeon Master Pledges which also purchased Tyrant, Warlord, and Crypts Expansions.

I have a quickstart guide for making starting characters here where I took the 30 pages the rules where scattered and compressed them to like 1 page and 2 tables.

These corrections are now based on the newest pdf.

Jake has started his own FAQ which is ofcourse the official one. I will be adding his rulings in bold red through the text as he fills them in but will leave my original discussion also.

If I do not answer your question put it in the comments.  I can do core game rules also since those are repeated in the AC but quest specific or card specific stuff will be hard unless you can provide an image of the card or text in question.

Table of Contents(Under Development)

How do I Use Custom Heroes in the Core Game?

Overlord Rules:
How Far do I Build the Dungeon?
When Exactly Does the Overlord Win From Running Out of Overlord Cards?
Overlord Powers, Commands, and Raise Dead
Max Raise Dead and Minion Number Limits
Summoned Ghosts and Bleed Zombies Count as Activated

Fighting and Movement:
Corners and Arcs
When Can You Change Your Facing?

Shooting:
Shooting Adjacent Models and From Behind?
Line of Sight Rule
Do Cover Modifiers Stack?

Magic Rules:
Does Injury Affect Spell Casting Attack Dice? 
Can an Energy Crystal Recharge a Minor Spell to Cast it Twice in One Turn? 
What Spells Can you Cast on a Door/Lock? 

Items and Traps:
When and What Items can Characters Trade During a Scenario?
What Activates a Lock Trap?

Large Models:
Large Model Attacking From Rear
Large Model Outnumbering 

Hero Creation and Advancement:
Hero Creation Feats and When they can be learned
Hero Shooting Dice Advancement Rule
Demon Hunter Shooting Dice
Petty Magic and Break Ward Access
Druid Advancement: Element Ability or Magic School
Wizard Advancement: New School Access
Max Dice in Test is 6
Campaign Rules: Glory, Feats, and Item Trading

Abilities and Feats:
Relentless plus Unstoppable
Hammertime Plus Smash!
Slam and Attack Roll
Null vs Fire or other spell like affects
Focus and In Tune With Nature Different Spells Errata

Uncharted Dungeons and Invisible Overlord:
Uncharted Dungeons Insights and Suggestions
Uncharted Dungeons Overlord Victory Conditions
Invisible Overlord Cards, Insights, and Suggestions
Invisible Overlords of Uncharted Dungeons

Additional Adventures Companion Issues:
Missing Bad Guy Shooting Ranges
Elf Minion Stat Line Corrections

Dungeon Journal Issues:
Blaine's Feat
Keldan Kickstarter Mission 2: First Maps Missing Labels



Page 12 How do I use Custom Characters in the Main Game or Expansions?

This is actually 2 questions in one.  First is what levels should I make the characters if I want to use them in a stand alone mission from the core campaign.  I think this is what the table on page 12 is trying to tell you.  If you make a set of characters that should be their levels which might have to be mixed to make the numbers work.  An important thing to remember is that the Core Missions assume you have break ward so you must have a caster with that spell or you are not going to be able to do the missions.  I deal with this in more detail later in the character creation rules discussion. The Core missions also do not provide the Lock difficulty value for picking.  The best suggestion I have seen for this to take the Door strength and divide it by 2 and round down to find the lock picking number (2,3=1; 4,5=2).

Now careful study of the characters will yield that their levels do not match the values provided in the table on page 12 of the adventurers companion.  Initially the published heroes are first or second level, they gain levels through the campaign as you would expect but the wizards has far more spells than normal and ignores the school rules. The premade characters also do not specifically have levels so ignore any rules related to magic items or spells that require them to be a specific level to use.


AC Table Actual Heroes Gear Value (Disposables)
Intros - 5 - (4)
Mission 1 0 5 - (3)
Mission 2 3 7 3 (4)
Mission 3 6 11 3 (5)
Mission 4 9 11 3 (7)
Mission 5 12 13 3 (10)
Mission 6 15 20 13 (4)
Mission 7 18 23 13 (7)
Mission 8 20 25 19 (11)


One of the reasons the hero levels read so high is that Danor is gaining spells at a much faster rate than the other characters are leveling.  At Mission 8 he knows 10 spells which means 5 advancements (I ignored the Spell Schools part of the determination).  I also did not assign any level values to converting red hearts to clear hearts for Injury as that is not available in the AC.

You can also treat to the missions as the series of mission in a Campaign and run the heroes through the full downtime.  This will probably cause the problems since the campaign rules are not designed under the repeat until you succeed structure that the Core Scenarios use.  Probably I would only send the heroes to downtime if they successfully completed the mission.  This will probably end up with the heroes ahead in level early but falling behind later.  It also might cause problems dealing with the magic items which are specifically chosen to work well with the heroes and would probably need to be sold which is not allowed in the rules and the characters to hope they find stuff that works will for them in the market place.

Another option is to use those levels as essentially level gains and level the characters without using the full campaign rules and just allow standard skills and feat learning without locations.  This would probably cause issues with the magic items and if you are doing this the overlord might need to custom set the magic items to be useful for the party.

The expansion all provide similar tables but I will note that I believe the table in Infernal Crypts is in error.  It lists the starting combined levels for the first adventure at like 20 but the heroes provided are functionally equivalent to the core game heroes at the first adventure so about 5-6 total character levels.  It looks like they copied this table from Return of Valandor but should probably be the same as the tables in Warlord and Tyrant.

I propose the following Table for Infernal Crypts:


Very similar to Warlord and Tyrant just starting at 6 total levels instead of 8but either of those are fine.  Just not the 20 total levels proposed in the book.

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Page 13 How Much Dungeon to Build? (RAW)

The rules are very clear in a little box on the top of page 13 in the adventures companion that unless you are told otherwise you never build and reveal to the heroes what lies behind a door or secret passage unless they have successfully opened it:

 IMPORTANT! Only set up the tiles from the heroes’ starting position to the first door(s).
Anything beyond is not yet in play and remains a mystery to the heroes.


I would recommend getting the components grouped by zone before starting the missions so that each section can be built quickly.  Note the place in the turn structure the door was opened since the game will pick up exactly there.  Remember that it is possible for a Hero to unlock a door in the middle of his action and the rules do not say otherwise so he will continue with his actions after the new section has been assembled and populated.  Examples include still having other spells he could cast is clear and I was right now checking on other possibilities from Feats or Abilities that grant multiple attacks (whirlwind, relentless, unstoppable).

When you set up a new section you might not have all the monsters you need to populate it if the heroes have managed to get past them without killing them.  In necromancer games replace any monsters that cannot be placed with pile of bones.  If you are a different overlord type not sure what the answer would be but probably just not place the monster.
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Page 16 When Does Overlord Win For Running Out of Overlord Cards

One of the major way for the overlord to win quests is to time out the heroes. Whether this is an option is listed in the victory conditions, but when does this occur. The overlord player draws his card at the end of the turn:

In addition, the Overlord is dealt one extra card at the end of each Round, drawn from those remaining in the draw pile. 

If the deck of cards is exhausted then the Overlord cannot draw any more, and in most cases this will mean that the adventure is over. 

So when the Overlord goes to draw a card at the end of the turn but the deck is already empty is when he wins.  Ofcourse often the overlord has essentially won at the start of his turn for that round as the Heroes fulfilling their victory condition during the Overlord Turn is very low and only going to be from special game effects. 

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Page 15 Overlord Powers - Raise Dead (RAW)

Necromancer Overlords are allowed to use commands to cast a raise dead spell that can convert one pile of bones to a model.

Instead of Moving and Acting with a model that is already on
the board, a magic-using Overlord can use his Commands to cast
spells - for example in the case of Mortibris the Necromancer he
may cast the Raise Dead spell. When the Raise Dead spell is
cast, the Overlord player replaces a single Pile of Bones counter
with a miniature of his choice from the adventure’s list, facing
any direction he chooses.


The overlord player can raise one skeleton per command point he wants to spend. If he has 3 command points he can raise 2 skeletons and have a different model perform an action. He can also raise more skeletons using the raise dead overlord card or by using an extra command card to give more commands to turn into raising skeletons. Remember that a raised skeleton cannot act the turn it is raised.

A Minion that is raised from a Pile of Bones counts as
having made its Action, and cannot do anything else in that Turn.


Skeletons can also be raised using the command points from interrupt cards. Those count as mini turns so those skeletons can act normally when the overlord turn comes around or even in a later interrupt.  From page 16:

These are played in between two Hero Turns, after one Hero has completed their Turn and before the next begins. The Overlord immediately gets to Move and Act with the number of models listed on the card, one at a time. This is not the Overlord’s Turn and therefore these models may Move and Act again either by using extra Interrupt cards later in the Round, or during the Overlord’s Turn.

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Maximum Raise Dead and Other Minion Model Limits

Each adventure in the Core Game lists a Max Raise Dead limits which is general a list of model types and a maximum number.  This number represents the maximum of that model(usually Skeletal models but Zombies or Ghosts can also have a similar rule in place for certain missions) the overlord is allowed to have on the board at one time.  The best way to handle this is to take that number of those models and place them aside.  Anytime you need to place on of those types of models either to fill in the dungeon initial or when a new zone is opened you draw from that pile.  When you can raise a model from a pile of bones, you then can select a model from that set aside group.  If there are no models left in the set aside group you cannot raise anymore dead.

Occasionally you might find that when building a new section of the dungeon you cannot place a model since you have reach the max number of that model available.  In this case replace the model with a pile of bones.

Another limit on Minions is often enforced.  The game is designed with a certain total number of models available.  Usually this is dictated by what was in the game box,  for example the core game come with 4 regular zombies so at not time should more than 4 be in play for the core game missions even if you have more from the Return of Valandor expansion.  When playing Return of Valandor missions, you use the models from the base game and the expansion to set up your overall maximum models.  Similarly in the Warlord expansion, if you are using all the orc or goblin models of a type that came in the set, if you are directed to place more by a card or other rule you ignore the rule.

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Page 16  Summoned Ghosts and Bleed Zombies Count As Activated (RAI)

When a new model is placed on the board, it should in general be considered activated for this turn unless the rules used for placing it specifically says it is still free to act. On page 19 it notes that Summoned Ghosts and Bleed Zombies suffer free strikes from appearing if in the front arc like a Raised Skeleton, so this is a continuation of that rule that they appear using similar rule structure. This is confirmed by Jake as the intended rule.
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Page 18 Corners and Arcs (RAW)

When a model is at a corner how does it affect its arcs.  It has no affect on the arcs.  Corners do not provide cover from the front or rear arcs.  The only rules for determining the arcs is:

The 3 squares behind the model (shown in blue) form its rear arc.
The remaining 5 (shown in red) are its front arc.


There is no mention of the board or edges making any changes to the arcs.

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Page 18 When can a model Change Facing? (RAW)

Models can only change facing while taking a move, but note that they do not actually have to move a square they just have to allowed to move at that point in the game.  The move rules specifically list:

 It can remain in the same square and change its facing.

As one of the options for the move part of a models action.  One time you cannot change facing is when using a feat as it replaces the character's entire turn.  This can be seen on page 14:


Note that you cannot Move, change facing or perform a normal Action when using your Heroic Feat unless the Feat itself says so – the Feat replaces the Hero’s entire Turn.

Some feats allow you to move and during those times you are free to change your facing even if it is not the movement part of your action.
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Page 22 Shooting Adjacent Models and Models from Behind (RAW)

The rules seem to imply that you can shoot an adjacent model provided it is in no enemies models front arc:

A model that is in the front arc of an enemy model cannot Shoot.

Since that is the only rule that lists when you cannot shot and the rules does not ever actually say you cannot shot a model you are next to since they are in front of you and in line of sight then you can shoot a model next to you.  This reading is supported by the rules for penalties for being shot from behind.  If you are behind a model in its rear arc you can shot it and claim


-1 for the defender if the shooter is completely within its rear arc

or you can shoot another model while you are in the back arc of an enemy thus giving one of your fellow heroes an outnumber bonus on that guy while you pick off someone else.  Also note that rear arc technically means the 3 squares (4 for large) directly behind the model.  This should say that the shooter is completely behind the line made at the back of the model along the 3 rear squares which shall be defined as a models rear area.

This reading does not seem correct to me so a RAI version would not allow shooting adjacent models but also apply the rear area rule from above as opposed to the rear arc which only makes sense if you are allowed to shoot adjacent models.  We see in the large creature section that the arc's are again used in ways that do not make sense.

I have written an updated discussion of this rule here.

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Page 22 Line of Sight (RAI Correction-Revised)

Current Text:

A model can only Shoot things in front of it. When measuring the range, use the straight edge of the range stick to see if there is anything blocking the line of sight between any part of the shooter’s base and any part of the target’s base. Line of sight is blocked by any square that contains a miniature or a wall (a blank space not taken up by tiles). If the line of sight is blocked, or the target is behind the shooter, then they cannot shoot!

My reading: This text is the exact opposite of what they mean.  This game is supposed to have very liberal line of sight rules but as written this means that if I can find any line that is blocked than line of sight is blocked.

Replacement Rule:

A model can only Shoot things in front of it.   When measuring the range, use the straight edge of the range stick to verify that you can find at least 1 straight line starting inside the shooter's square and ending inside the target's square that does not touch a square contain a line of sight blocking object like another model or a bookcase or edge of the tile set.  If that single clear path exists, line of sight is not blocked and the Shooting attack can proceed.

Revised Additional Note:  You are measuring between points inside the square not at the boundaries but line of sight blocking goes all the way to the edge of the square.  Originally I misread a figure in Green Menace, by looking at the labels and shadings of the line but the captions said the opposite so I am going to go with the caption.  Green Menace has a statement that you cannot shoot through a diagonal place you cannot move through.  This rule though cannot be directly translated  to Dungeon Saga as Dungeon Saga has movement blocking furniature that does not block line of sight so to make the rule more clear and without need of a specific example I think it is best to make touching a line of sight blocking square count as a blocked line.

Still if a model is standing in an alcove or the first square or a narrow hall they are very likely to be in line of sight under the intended rules.  You have to essentially get 1 square down the hall to get any real line of sight blocking.  Think of it of them having to peak out to see what is going on or shooting by leaning out.


I recreated my figure for all this.  So here we have 3 elves fighting 4 orcs.  The elf in the back of the room wants to take a shooting attack from his current position.  The orc directly in front of him is behind another elf.  This elf's square completely blocks all the lines from the archer to that target.  The orc with the great ax next to him is a valid target.  I have marked at the at least 1 clear line in green.

Now we look at the orc in the left corridor fighting another elf.  This orc is not a valid target.    All of the lines that connect the shooter to this orc either go off the board, through the other elf's square or through the corner point but the corner point is considered blocked by both elf and board edge.

Lastly we have the great axe to the left.  He is the trickiest.  The best way to test this case is to find the corner that is the easiest for the attacker to see.  In this case the upper left corner as one end of your straight edge, then place the straight edge such that it touches the corner of the square which you think might be blocking line of sight and look at the ruler as it goes toward the shooter.  In this case my red line touches the corner of the shooters square.  The corner is not inside his square so all the possible line are blocked.  If the ruler passed through his square before intersecting any  other line of sight blocking squares he would be a valid target.  So if the elf was one square to the left or 1 square forward he could hit that orc.

I have written an updated discussion of this rule here.

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Page 23 Do Cover Modifier's Stack?

If the all line of sight lines cross multiple pieces of furniture do the -1 modifiers stack.  The rule is stated as:

-1 for the shooter if the line of sight crosses a piece of furniture that is not adjacent to the shooter.

So the line does cross a piece of furniture but the rule does not say each so the it is a single modifier of -1.  This is similar to the outnumbering modifier which is a flat -1 regardless of how outnumbered.  To be consistent remember that the cover is provided all the way to the edges of the furniture square.

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Page 26 Does Injury Modify Spell Attack Rolls?

The standard modifiers for combat are not used in resolving attacks that are considered spells be it a spell or an ability like Fire that says it is treated as a spell:

Magical attacks are never modified by any standard modifiers. However some game effects or magical items may affect the roll, such as Energy Crystals.

Pretty clear there, injury is a standard modifier as opposed to be in contact with magical furniature

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Page 26 Using Energy Crystal to Cast Minor Spell Twice?

Energy Crystals can be used to recharge a spell to make it active but that does not allow someone to cast the spell again as part of the same action. The rules for casting the two minor spells is:

As his Action within a Turn, instead of Fighting or Shooting, a Spellcaster can cast either 1 Major or up to 2 different Minor Spells.

So the rule clearly says different spells.  You cannot use a crystal to allow you to cast break ward twice in one action.  So normally energy crystals are not really useful for recharging minor spells for Heroes.  Now a Boss might find it useful to recharge a minor spell cast during an interrupt so that he can cast it again during the normal overlord turn since the spells get recharged at the end of the overall round not for each action the model gets.

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What Spells can you cast on Doors or Locks?

The Locks on doors must be attack with a Fight action, who cannot attack them with missile or spells but that does not mean they cannot be targeted by other spells. A little rule note that only appears in the Core Game rule book on page 21 and not in the Adventurers Companion states:

Note: Doors, treasure chests and other furniture do not make Free Strikes, attack other models or count towards outnumbering.
They do however count as models for the purposes of abilities or Feats such as Orlaf’s Whirlwind.

So what Spells make sense, obvious only spells that affect defense matter.  Both Rot and Corrode would work to reduce a Doors Armor value.  I would also allow Steelskin to be used to fortify a door (for a sneaky Overlord).  I would not allow Feet of Stone, since it just does not make sense that -1 defense would occur to a door who could not move well.

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Page 27 When and What Items can Characters Trade During Scenarios

The first part of the question is easier to answer than the second.  When can characters transfer an allowed item during the game?  For the answer we go to page 27:

A Hero that moves adjacent to another Hero during his Turn can give, receive or swap eligible items with that Hero. Both Hero players must agree to the trade.

So essentially anytime two heroes are next to each other when one is in the movement part of its turn they can trade items.  The next part of the rule is equally important:

Note that this can be done in the middle of a Heroes movement, and does not count as performing an action.

This part clarifies that the exchange can be at the start, middle, or end of the movement as long as you do not move onto the attack, shoot, or spell part before making the exchange.  Also note that feats often do not include movement so exchanging items during a feat that is movement free is not allowed.  But the other Hero can trade the item if they are still next to each other during his move.

The next part of the questions is what items can be traded.  For the trading of items the rules say:

During a game, Paraphernalia can be traded between Heroes. Other types of magical item must remain on the Hero they began that adventure with.

Paraphernalia is described at potions, scrolls, powders, so it probably includes crystals.  But all other types which are weapons, armor, and shields cannot be traded.  This what the rules say but it might be that these rules are just for items the characters start with.  What about items the characters collect as detailed on page 28:

When a treasure chest is unlocked the Hero that unlocked it immediately takes any item(s) that were inside, as detailed in the Quest Book. Place the appropriate item card(s) next to his Hero card as a reminder.

So whoever opens the chest automatically gets all the items.  It does not say they are free to trade them so in a RAW, they have to stay with the character until the end of the mission and can be traded in the downtime.  This might seem unsatisfactory to some people and I would not be surprised if the RAI was the heroes could trade any items found during the mission but as it is not game breaking I am going to stick to the RAW and say that they cannot trade found items.  They are to busy to figure out what to do with the items and they might just want to save them for themselves for sale in the market place later.

Now you might encounter during a quest, items that are not listed with cards but are instead kept track of with cardstock tokens.  Those little pieces can be traded freely by the heroes as the quest is almost impossible if they cannot be traded.
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Page 29 Lock Traps (RAI)

The current rule for lock traps says:

If something has a lock, then it can be trapped. Lock traps
are triggered the first time someone tries to pick the lock.
They come in a variety of types, ranging from the irritating to
the lethal. Triggering a trap ends that model’s Turn, regardless of
whether they manage to avoid the effects or not.


So only picking a lock as written triggers the traps which makes having a thief along much more dangerous for the party as no one else picks the lock.  They open the lock by fighting it or using break ward but they do not pick so the rule should be changed to :

 
If something has a lock, then it can be trapped. Lock traps
are triggered the first time someone tries to preform an action on the lock.
They come in a variety of types, ranging from the irritating to
the lethal. Triggering a trap ends that model’s Turn, regardless of
whether they manage to avoid the effects or not.


That covers picking, fighting, and spells so that should cover everything.  It should be noted that tarp is activated before you complete your action and ends your turn so no progresses is made on picking, wards and no fight dice are rolled.

This ruling is sported by the disarm traps ability on page 65 that says:

Before someone attempts to open a lock (by any means) a model with this ability may try to disarm any trap that may be hidden on it.

You will only know if you have been successful when you actually open the lock. At this point, roll one dice. On a 2 or better any trap has been disarmed and can be ignored. On a 1 you should roll to see if it goes off as usual.

So traps should be triggered by any attempt to open a lock as usual.


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Page 30 Large Models Attacking from the Rear Arc

The rules for determining the modifier when you are attacked are listed on page 16 as:

-1 for the defender if the attacker is completely within its rear arc.

This rule is designed for large models but it is incorrectly stated.  In the large model area it repeats it as:

Note that this means that a Large or Huge model can be in an enemy’s front and rear arcs at the same time. The Large model will only get the bonus for attacking from behind if it is fully within its enemy’s rear arc.

The issue here is ofcourse that a large model does not fit in someones rear arc.  What they mean is that the large model must be in the rear arc with none in the front arc.  I define the rear area as all the squared along the line of squares of the rear arc extended out to the edge of the board and going backwards from the model in question.

I have written an updated discussion of this rule here.

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Page 31 Large Model Outnumbering

Large models(2*2 square footprint) always outnumber single square models in combat:

Large models always count as outnumbering single square models even if they are the only model in contact, and even if they are in contact with multiple enemy models. In this case they will also be outnumbered themselves.

So that also says they can be outnumbered by smaller models with only 2 smaller models.  If both models are large they are not outnumbered unless one has another enemy model on it.  That second model can be smaller.  Huge monsters always outnumber both small and large models and can only be outnumbered by 2 or more also huge models.
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Page 33 Hero Creation-Feats (RAW)

I have a quickstart guide for making heroes but note that Heroes start at 0th level and do not have a feat. The rules are clear as choosing a feat is not mentioned on page 33, in the creation example on page 53.  The table for the number of feats a character can know on page 73 lists:

Level 1-4: 1 feat
Level 5-8: 2 feats
Level 9-10: 3 feats


Pages 35-53 +1 Shooting Dice Advancement (RAI)

The current rules for Shooting Dice advancement are unusable.  Due to a late change in the rules structure what used to be a ranked skill (Marksman(X) and Deft Throw(X)) got replaced with a Characteristic Value: Shooting Dice (Long) and Shooting Dice (Short) respectively.  During the find and replace process they appear to have made a few errors (like erasing all the range category information from the monsters in the back) but the most critical one is that they made these advancements unusable for characters who do not start with any Shooting Dice of that type.

One Page 72 it says:

In Dungeon Saga this means that a Hero cannot keep getting the same boost repeatedly. In fact, a Hero can only get each ability, feat, spell, song or other game value increase once. This means that a Hero may have fewer than three choices when he gains a new level, if he already has one of those on offer. For example, if a Hero had already taken a +1 Movement bonus then he could not take another.

So as written you can take the +1 Shooting Die (Long) from say the elf table as a Barbarian but it gives you 1 die and you can only take it once.  One die is below the attack threshold.  The key to fixing this is to remember that they are supposed to be ranked skills and to see the paragraph farther down:

Ranked abilities are a special case because each numbered rank works like a separate ability. In this case, when a Hero gains a new ranked ability it will be at the lowest level listed. Each subsequent time he gains the same ability the level goes up by one until it reaches the maximum for that particular ability. 

So since the minimum for attacks is two dice these advancements should be treated as Ranked Skills with a minimum dice of 2.  There is probably also supposed to be a maximum but currently you can get up to 7 attack dice characteristic (Salamander Barbarian with +1 Combat Dice) without magic items if someone wants to put everything into ranged dice they can.   (Note Page 60 says only 6 dice can every be used in a test so it would just make the Barbarian not actually lose a die that is rolled from injury or outnumbering). So the first time you take the advancement if you do not already have that attack type it grants 2 dice but if you already have the attack it increases your shooting dice by 1 and you can take it for as many advancements as desired under the standard table choices.

I propose the following addition to the rules:

Shooting Dice (Long) and Shooting Dice (Short) should be treated as two seperate ranked abilities with base level of 2 and max level off 5. 

I believe that the rules do support this reading.  They were this way in both the Alpha and Beta Tests, several classes have them as 15-20% of their total advancement options taking up 4 of 20 slots while normally abilities that can be selected only once are only 10% of any classes options.  The rule for minimum ability level is not used anywhere in the book but what would be the application here.  3 of the Legendary characters if they are made by the rules in the AC require selecting +1 shooting dice advancement twice which is not allowed unless it is a ranked skill.  One would be an exception but 3 essentially all the primary versions of the shooting characters is a rule.  Additionally None of the class advancement tables have Sure Shot and +1 Shooting Dice (Range) at the same level.  This would make sense if you could take multiple +1 Shooting Dice since Sure Shot is not a good as a +1 die but seems like a strange coincidence for the case where you can only take +1 shooting die once.


Jake apparent disagrees and declares that they are stat increases that can be taken only once which yields a one die attack that get increased to 2 when rolling by the minimum attack level rule.  I will not be playing this way.

My suggestions is that it is a ranked ability that can be selected for advancement twice.  Initial selection for models without the ability yields 2 levels but models with it gain one per selection.  This allows bard and other classes to get to a 3 dice attack but does not make things like Sure Shot useless.


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Page 47,57 Demonhunter Shooting Dice (Short)  (RAI Best Guess)

Initially I thought this was a typo and the Demonhunter should include a 2 Short Shooting Dice initially like the premade hero but after studying the heroes the Author has often added shooting dice compared to what is common for a level 0 or 1 character.  Since they did not correct it in the reprint I will assume it is correct and the Demonhunter does not start with any shooting dice.  So the only issue remaining is the Speed of the Bullet appearing at the same time as the first shooting dice on the table.  To correct this I would move Speed of the Bullet to 4th level and Teller of Tales from 4th to 3rd.

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Pages 46, 48, 50  Petty Magic/Spell Selection (RAW and Playability Corrections)

The Cleric, Druid, and Paladin all have access to Petty Magic page as per page 66 in the AC so that should be added to their starting abilities lists.   For RAW Clerics and Druids still get their 3 initial spells purely from their primary schools (Divinity and Druidism respectively).  For a playability improvement, I would still have them draw 6 at random then pick 2 of those 6 spells  all coming from the primary school but I would allow the free pick to come from primary school plus Petty Magic.  This provides access to Break Ward which is a vital spell in many of the campaigns and only RAW available to Mages currently at starting level outside like a 1 in 30 chance from Bonus Spell during character generation.  This modification makes it available to enough spell casters for the party not to have to always have a Mage for essentially every mission until one of the other casters learns it during the semi-random learn spell advancements.
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Page 48 Druid School or Ability Advancements (Clarification)

The druid character has several advancement lines of the form:
 
Earth or Geomancy


Which list a abilities and its matching School of Magic.  When you select these you obvious get to pick one but it does not forbid you from picking this same advancement later in the table to get the other component.  So at first level you can select Earth then when it shows up again at 7th level you could then take the Geomancy school if you wanted to.

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Page 52 New Wizard Schools (RAI)

Wizards in their advancements are allowed to learn additional schools of magic beyond their initial choice and petty magic.  Learning a new school does not yield any spells but allows for that schools spells to be included the next time the Wizard learns a spell.  The New School choice has a little marker that is defined almost 20 pages before at the bottom of page 34 which says:

Choose a new school of magic from the list on page 66.

The problem I have with this is that included in the list of schools on page 66 is Divinity and Druidism so the Wizard if he wants to can try to learn the healing spells of the Cleric which pretty much goes against all of the rules of Dungeon Crawling.  So I would change this to only allow a wizard to take a new school from the list he is allowed to choose initially.

Choose a new school of magic from Sorcery, Necromancy (Bosses only), Geomancy, Pyromancy, Aeromancy, or Hydromancy.
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Page 60 Extra Dice: Max 6 Dice

No one can ever roll more than 6 dice for any test.  Ever.  The rules is a little hard to find as it is in with the abilities since they often modify rolls but it is a general rule for everything base stats, abilities, magic items, spells, you name it.

Abilities that add dice work the same way as other modifiers, simply giving you more to roll.
However, after all modifiers have been taken into account, no dice roll can use more than 6 dice.
Any extra are lost.


But this does not mean you might not have abilities that would allow you to roll more than 6 (Salamander Barbarian(6 CD to start) with +1 Combat Die and a +1 Magic Axe would have 8).  It just says that after applying all the modifiers there are both positive and negative (Injury/outnumbering) that if the number you could roll is 6 or higher you only roll 6 and the rest are lost.  Since there are negative modifiers it does still make sense for the above character to choose the Combat Die advancement it is just less valuable since it only can be used to cancel other modifiers.
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Page 61 Hammertime and Smash!

Both Hammertime and Smash! modify the defenders Armor value in combat.  The use exactly the same wording:

When a model with this ability uses a Fight attack, count the target’s Armour as 1(2) less than it would otherwise be.

So if you have both do they stack.  I honestly do not know.  You can read the rule pretty much either way.  Obviously the best way to do this ability was to make it a Ranked skill with 2 levels.  Then it would have been clear what happens.  I also note that Regen and Tough are like this but there is explicit wording on how to treat this.  I do not think they are intended to stack though.  Just sloppy construction of a delay gratification type of thing in advancement.  -3 to armor is probably to powerful so they should not stack.
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Page 62 Relentless and Unstoppable 

Both the ability Relentless and the feat Unstoppable grant additional attacks under certain conditions.  If a model has both and uses the feat how does this work.  The key here is that the Relentless rule only applies to the very first attack of the models turn.

If the model’s first Fight attack in a Turn results in any damage to the defender then they may immediately make a second Fight attack against the same or different enemy model.

Unstoppable is written this way:

The Hero fights as normal. Then, if the defender is removed from the board, he may immediately fight again. If there are no models to fight, he may move 1 square. If he can now Fight then he must do so. Continue until the Hero can no longer fight or fails to remove his target in one attack.

So if the model uses the unstoppable feat and wounds but does not kill the model he can uses his relentless ability to get another chance since it is part of his normal fighting, if that attack removes the model then the unstoppable chain can start and since it will no longer be his first attack relentless does not matter.  If the first attack kills the model the unstoppable feat takes over granting the same next attack as the relentless with the added bonus of being able to move 1 square if there are no targets.
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Page 62 Does Slam require a Hit?

Does Slam require a Fight roll and Hit to work or is it just an automatic result? Looking at the rule:

When a character with this ability is the attacker, they may choose to make a Slam instead of a normal Fight attack. This causes no damage. Instead the defender is pushed into one of three possible squares, chosen by the attacker. There must be an empty square on the board for the model to be pushed into. The direction the defender is facing remains the same. The attacker does not move. 

A model cannot Slam a defender that has a larger base size.

The rule does not say make a Fight attack and then move the model on a Hit, it just says instead so the Slam is automatic.  Similar wording appears in the Green Menace game so you can free push people around if you think that is better than hurting them.
 
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Page 64 Null vs Fire/Etc.

The Null ability says that it affects things that are spells.  If you need to check if an ability is affected check the description to see if it says it is treated as a spell.  All of the minor elemental attacks are treated as a spell, as is Hypnotic Gaze so all trigger Null checks and the model has to follow the results in terms of lost additional spells due to turn ending or the ability not working at.  Null even affects the character whose skill it is so for example Arianya's water attack might bet canceled by her own Null.  I do not know how it affects magical traps without looking at the cards but I would guess that those are not considered spells so it would probably have no affect.

Pages 68-72 Glory, Trading, Experience and Feats (RAI)

The campaign and leveling systems is pretty well done but a couple of things caught my eye.  There is a sequential list of activities on page 69 to list the specific order of downtime: Clear Wounds, Collect Gold, Feats, Locations, Experience.  Two things appeared missing here.  Gain Glory and Trade Valuables.  The way the rules are written the section on gaining glory is in the experience area but you need to have been awarded your glory to get a feat so it probably should be earlier so change the text on page 69 for step 2 to:

2) Collect Gold and Glory.
 

a. Take 1 Gold.
 

b. If you were on the winning side in the last adventure
you may keep 1 magic item you found in the dungeon.
The rest are returned to your patron. If you found
no magic items then you get 1 more chest of Gold
instead.  Each Hero is awarded 1 point of Glory for their victory.


c. If you lost the adventure then you do not keep any
magic items and get no extra Gold. Your patron will
need the little you escaped with to fund another
attempt.  Heroes receive no glory since the spoils go to the victors.


Now it is perfectly clear when the adventure glory is given. 


The next issue is trading.  Since in step 2 heroes have to turn in magic items more than the first they recovered during the mission, if one hero is the chest opener (looking at you thief) he might have more than this limit that he would like to disperse to his follow adventures before visiting the patron where he might have to relinquish them.  I think all trading should be done in Step 1 of downtime while the heroes recover from their injuries as they journey back to town, they split up the loot so to speak.

So Change Step 1 to:

1) Recover from injuries.
Simply remove all the wound counters from your Hero card.

Players at this point my trade gold and items. 

While this protects the heroes from losing items to the patron, it does have one draw back.  They cannot trade gold in town to buy items that show up in the market place.  Each player shops the market place with his own gold reserves.  You could also say heroes can trade at any time during any step but that seems to be not as much fun.  I would rather heroes kept what they killed so to speak than bought stuff.


The next small issue is Feats.  First note that when you decide that you are going to learn a feat not only do you not get to go to a location during downtime, you have to make the decision that you want to get a feat before the specific locations for this downtime are revealed.  This means if you are really looking for a specific location you could miss it by getting your feat.  The issue I have with the feats is when I read the text it seems unclear to me at what levels you can actually learn them:

Earning a feat is a rare type of experience boost. The number of
feats a Hero can know is based on their current level:
 

Level 1-4: 1 feat
Level 5-8: 2 feats
Level 9-10: 3 feats
 

During Downtime, a Hero can learn a new feat if he hasn’t
already reached his current limit and has enough Glory to advance
a level during this Downtime.


Do you see the problem.  The text refers to the heroes current level then advancing a level.  So by my reading that means when you go from 0 to 1st level in a downtime you cannot learn a feat as your current level feat limit is 0.  This does not seem right so we will change it to:



Earning a feat is a rare type of experience boost. The number of
feats a Hero can know is based on their level:
 

Level 1-4: 1 feat
Level 5-8: 2 feats
Level 9-10: 3 feats
 

During Downtime, a Hero can learn a new feat if he hasn’t
already reached the limit for his new level and has enough Glory to advance 

to the new level during this Downtime.
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Page 72  Focus and In Tune with Nature Different Spells

When a model casts 2 minor spells in normal spell casting those spell a required to be different.  That note is not included with these two feats but I believe that it should so so I am adding it to their texts:

Focus
The Hero must be a Spellcaster to use this feat.
The Hero can cast up to three different Major spells. They may be cast even if they are currently recharging.


 In Tune with Nature
The Hero must be a Spellcaster to use this feat.
The Hero can cast up to 4 different Minor spells.


This removes an exploit using a power crystal to recharge spells so you can cast them again in the same turn for In Tune and just prevents it in Focus.  For Focus I would also allow minor spells be substituted on a 1 for 1 basis for the major spells.
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Pages 74-77 Uncharted Dungeon Overlord Deck and Insights 

The uncharted dungeon section calls for the use of an Overlord Deck that is equal to the number of Uncharted Dungeon Cards times 2.  This seems far to short to me.  It would be 8 cards but you draw three at the start so only 5 turns to get through up to 3 doors and clear monsters and find treasure.  I would initial think it should be 3 but remember that the Heroes do not know the type of lock on objects (doors/chests) until they get next to it (you do not use the value from the initial card you populated the section with, you draw a new card when they get next to it) so the wrong type of guy might get to the door that they cannot open and then people have to switch positions.  I would probably therefore use 4 as the number initially.

Jake says that the standard number should be 3 but for inexperienced heroes or very good overlords you might need 4 overlord cards per uncharted dungeon card used.

Another issue here is that there is no guidance on building the overlord deck.  The Necromancer overlord deck is not proper for the other races.  I cannot really comment on the expansions deck but if the bestiary was there to help use the other races as minions and build bosses, a representative deck would have been helpful for each, including the Humans, Dwarves, and Elves.

Jake says to use the standard deck unless you are using a overlord panel from an expansion then add in that expansions overlord cards as well.  

Sometimes the green arrow for the entry square on the Dungeon Card points to the space between squares for this I would first figure out where the next door is supposed to go and use which ever square provides the most space for the next undiscovered zone on the playing surface. If it does not matter roll a die to choose.  Another option here if you get to a point where the dungeon construction needs some discretion to make it work the decision goes to the overlord.  It is his dungeon right.

Jake agrees that it is the overlords decision if the rules leave him options.

To help the Overlord out with this higher number of turns I would allow him to place multiple monster types from the same page in the monster section.  He is still held by the 4 monster limit but if he draws a 3 Level on the Encounter Card he can put down 2 skeletons and 2 piles of bones which is not currently allowed.  I would also not put any individual monsters into a section whose level is higher than twice the average characters (to a min of 2 for 0 level characters).  You might not be able to use all the points they give you but the heroes would have probably died.  So if you draw a 15 level encounter card for your first level characters you can put in up to 4 level 1-2 Monsters even though the rules would allow you to put on like 3 level 5 monsters.  This is an initial ball park estimate if people find that it is to easy the level can be increased.

The section also lacks activation information.  I might use 2 for heroes levels 0-1, 3 for heroes level 2-5, and then 4 for higher level heroes assuming 4 heroes.  I have not tested these and will update them when I get a better feeling for how the published scenarios assign these values.

Jake says to use 2 for 0-8, 3 for 9-16, and 4 for 17+ combined hero levels.

There is also not much direction on making a Boss.  Since even though this is a random dungeon, you have to make your own boss if you are the overlord ahead of time.  I would probably start with a Boss using the Race and Profession information in the back of the book and advance him up to the character levels plus 1 more for each additional character if you are only using 1 boss.  If you are using 2 Bossesm I would do character levels plus 1 for each.  They should be fairly tough but the characters are also likely to have Magic items and you do not want to give the Boss those as they fall into the characters hands with victory.  Also remember you can assign the spellcaster Bosses the spells you want for them to have instead of the semi random selection method heroes use.

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Page 76 Uncharted Dungeons Overlord Victory Condition

The original version of the Adventurers Companion clearly listed the Uncharted Dungeons Victory conditions for the Overlord player as:

In random dungeons the Overlord always wins by either crippling one of the Heroes or stalling them long enough to run the Heroes out of time, measured by his Overlord cards as usual.

There is some indications that this sentence was lost in the reprints so there it is. Standard Overlord rules for victory.

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Pages 80-83 Solo Play Overlord Deck and Insights

The first question that comes up is about the Overlord and Invisible Overlord card decks.  These are two seperate deck types and the cards do not get mixed.  When you get an new expansion they often come with Overlord cards and Invisible Overlord cards specific to the Overlord Type.  The Overlord cards are added to build the player overlord deck as described in the mission rules which may have certain cards added for certain missions.  For the Invisible Overlord deck add the expansions IO cards to just the Adventures Companion Invisible Overlord Deck so remember to remove any other expansions IO cards.  For the core game you can play with just the IO cards in the AC or mix in the IO cards found in the Return of Valandor expansion.  These cards often raise a lot of dead and might be monsters not in your Raise Dead pool so I would probably keep them out at least for the first couple of missions.

The IO Turn Sequence is:

Hero Action 1
Draw IO Card, Check Interrupt
Hero Action 2
Draw IO Card, Check Interrupt
Hero Action 3
Draw IO Card, Check Interrupt
Hero Action 4
Overlord Turn, Draw IO Card, Follow Commands but use Quests Activations Number
Draw IO Card, Follow Commands using Number of Activations listed on IO Card
End of Round Phase.

The Invisible Overlord Cards are drawn between each hero action, and then twice during the Overlord turn  for 5 times total so they are not the timer for the missions.  When doing the solo play of the published missions it is still helpufl to use the traditional overlord deck as the timer.  You should make sure it has the proper number of cards for the mission(what is on the cards does not mater) move three over to a discard pile at the start and one over at the end of each round.  If the deck runs out the Heroes have lost.  For the Invisible Overlord deck, if it runs out than just reschuffle it and start using it again.  Remember that the expansion provide additional Invisible Overlord cards to add in which are specific to the type of Overlord being used in the published missions.


One thing to remember in the AI is that a monster will still attack in the Gang Up, Pin, Surround, and Support if it is able to be it spell or shooting or combat after it has completed the move directed my the tactic.  So if a skeleton in Pin stops next to a hero it will attack him.  The AI in these sections is just not prioritizing attacking with the most powerful attacks available (which is Attacks Goal) over getting models into position.  The attacks are essentially just the icing on the cake of getting models in the heroes way.  I would also suggest that Models in front arcs will not move to generate a free strike based on a change in the threat or tactic calculations.

Another thing that is often missed is that Support allows for raising dead.  Since Support is sort of the default command when you have unused activations this allows you to raise up pile of bones to replenish Skeletal models in the base game.  When choosing between moving up a model or raising one, I would take the one that gets the model most in the way of the heroes.

Bosses also need a character.  Warrior has no modifiers so is a fine default but I might use Cunning for some bosses.  I almost think bosses probably need their own list of characters or their own set of tactics since they often have multiple spells or attacks in a supporting role.  Bosses should be smart so I think they would choose the best tactic for the situtation but that is more like playing against yourself than the AI system is supposed to be.

This section still needs a lot of clarification but some time on the table is required to find the best descriptions of what to do.

I have modified and represented the rules here:


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Invisible Overlord in an Uncharted Dungeon 

I got a special request for this one.  I actually do not think combining them is such a problem if you use the suggestions I provide above to give a basis to some of the holes in each one.  Since the invisible overlord does not care about the nature of the overlord cards and is just using them as a timer, it is easier to use all of the available bad guys(good guys) in the back of the book.  If your Overlord's elves have a bunch of raise dead cards it does not matter.  Now if you have an expansion whose Overlord's type matches your monsters I would add those Invisible Overlord Cards to the standard IO deck.
 
One issue I see is that the overlord in my formulation has even more choice for the minions  so I would use this rule:

You are allowed 4 minions per new section and quantity is a quality all its own so I would first divide the Level total by 4 and try to get as many minions close to this level (remember I put a minion individual level limit of 2*average hero level (min 2)).  So maybe I have 3rd level heroes with a 8 level total section.  That is 2 per monster average with a max of level 6 so I would try to put out 4 level 2 monsters but if I do not have them I would work my way out in both directions looking for a combination I would make were all the monsters where level 6 or less and the total levels was 8 or less.

For monster placement I would probably place them is were increasing distance from heroes corresponded to decreasing combat dice and increasing shooting/attack spell dice.  So essentially the toughest combat minion goes closest and the best shooter goes farthest.

The Boss placement should probably follow a similar rule that a combat boss should be placed such that he is within one of his moves from the newly opened door and shooter/spell bosses should be one of his moves from the newly appearing door.

Another thing to note is that Goblins and Orcs are on the same overlord card for Warlord so even if you just have base pledge I think you should be able to use all your green rage booster in one Uncharted dungeon.  Just make your own overlord sheet by copying the digital rules to one page and printing them.   Honestly you are probably going to need the AC on other pages as you learn to play.

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Pages 86-94 Missing Shooting Ranges 

During the transition from Marksman and Deft Throw to a shooting dice characteristic, all the bad guy ranges where erased.  I went to KOW stats and anything that was listed as a Breathweapon was short and otherwise long since they are bows, crossbows, and rifles.

Abyssal Dwarf Decimator 3 Shooting Dice (Short)
Basilean Crossbowman 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Dwarf Crossbowman 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Dwarf Rifleman 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Elf Archer 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Elf Scout 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Ogre Shooter 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Ogre Boomer 3 Shooitng Dice (Short) (He might need a ability so he is just not a worse version of the shooter at the same level)
Goblin Archer 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Goblin War Trombone 4 Shooting Dice (Short)
Orc Archer 3 Shooting Dice (Long)
Skeleton Archer 3 Shooting Dice (Long)

Mantic Disagrees that monsters should have different ranges since that might make them more interesting so all the ranges for these guys in the new book are Long.  My bad.

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Page 89 Elf Combat Dice, Armor, Shooting Dice Layout Error:

There is a layout error when they went in to put the Long range shooting dice on the elves they added them to the armor column and made put the combat label under the armor value.  So the Combat dice are correct in the Attack Dice column, and the Armor column has the armor labeled as combat which the proper shooting dice are listed underneath.  These dice should be for (Long) Range.

This is fixed in the new pdf.

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Dungeon Journal Page 4: Blaine's Feat

Blaine's Feat has some funny text at the end:

They make all defence rolls at -1 dice.

Who is the they, Blaine's Feat auto kills any model that it can be used on so their is no concern for them making defense rolls during or after the use.  So it is either hold over text from an earlier version or the They is Blaine and Skullhunter.  That is how I am applying it to make it interesting.  So change the last line to:

Blaine makes all defense rolls at -1 dice for the remainder of the round after using this Feat.

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Dungeon Journal Page 21 Keldan Mission 2 First Map

There was omitted information from the first map of the second Keldan mission,  it did not include the labels for the bad guy types.  Here is a corrected version with Thugs in the center area and Bruisers at the edges.:



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I have also set up an index page for my Dungeon Saga stuff breaking it down to catagories of Rules, Gameplay, and Mantics Kickstarter performance and delivery. 


24 comments:

  1. good work, thanks buddy. There's a couple of typos in your text ;) but no worries, I haven't seen any "Page XXX" :P

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I am totally ready for a job at mantic then.

      Delete
    2. No you are not, since "page XXX" refrences are mandatory when working @ Mantic.

      Delete
    3. It is not a discussion of Dungeon Saga without a little XXX action.

      Delete
  2. Thanks for page 60, now back to the monster and boss generator.s

    ReplyDelete
  3. I'll start copying your answers to the wiki over the weekend, assuming your happy with that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fine steal my stuff. Just link back as the reference.

      Delete
  4. (Also riser now that jake has also liked to the pdf placing it firmly in public domain as it makes quoting verbatim permitted

    Keep up the good work.
    (Is there a story why you have an Australian domain?)

    ReplyDelete
  5. might be stupid question: what does RAW or RAI stand for?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Rules as written (literal interpretation) and rules as intended ( what the game designer meant

    ReplyDelete
  7. Since it is unofficial I was just trying to clarify whether I was just applying the rules or I thought the rule needed to be changed to match what the author wanted.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hi, is this a different FAQ to the one you are answering in Quirkworthy?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I try to help the game designer Jake out on his Quirkworthy blog by providing people answers to the questions when they are close enough that I can get something I think is reasonable. He is working on the official errata and FAQ but we do not have a time line on that so I took it on myself to start answering the questions there. If I get a new question over there I add it to this usually with a more in depth answer with rule quotes and such.

      I also have stuff hear not explicitly asked on his blog but linked and such.

      Delete
  9. Thanks for all this hard work eriochrome. I really hope the reprinted version incorporates this stuff as right now there are just so many holes!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As far as I can tell the reprint will be exactly the same as the pdf download available today.

      Delete
  10. I have one question about the spell from druidism school called 'Coat of Thorns'. The 3 dice attack occurs only if the druid is attacked or everytime he fight (attack & defend)

    Thanks for all this work Eriochrome.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It says "fights the caster" which is how you general describe attacking the caster with combat dice so I would say the 3 dice return attack only happens if the caster is attacked.

      Delete
  11. Hey there why is your line of sight image different in this blog post than on http://quirkworthy.com/2015/11/11/dungeon-saga-faq/
    It looks like the quick worthy one was posted 2 days later. Now I am ore confused than ever. Thanks for pitting in all the work on this, BTW...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I updated my figure here after some discussion there let me know I was misreading the rules from Green Menace. I could not delete the first image from quirkworthy so I put up a new one underneath it. The gist is find one clear path between the shooter and target and things that block line of sight block it all the way to edge of the square including the corners.

      Delete
  12. Would you be willing to post some more examples of LOS in photograph/image format? Thanks again...

    ReplyDelete
  13. thanks! your work is very useful, I 'll use in my games night

    ReplyDelete